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Important Take: Roman and Greek Religion are not interchangeable, and Roman religiosity is not a corruption of a Greek “Original”
“But Romans took Greek myths and made them weird,” WRONG.
“Roman gods were the same as Greek ones, though!” NOPE! TRY AGAIN
“Romans stole Greek religion” WHOA, SUPER DUPER NOPE!These are some really common takes that absolutely don’t hold water. I would like to point out some important things to note in regards to Greek/Roman Religion, and the ways they are perceived by popular internet spaces, versus the reality of both when they are closely examined.
1. The first take relies a lot on taking Ovid as a serious source. This is especially problematic from the standpoint of a religious study because Ovid was not writing a religious work when he wrote the Metamorphoses. Let me turn to Richard McKim’s Myth Against Philosophy
Ovid does not “believe in” the myths of the Met. in any literal sense, of course. But in my view he suggests in Book 1 that, in probing their imaginative and psychological dimensions through poetry, he can capture the paradox and complexity of the world of human experience with far greater success than a philosopher can through reason.
This work, therefore, tells us nothing about wither Greek nor Roman religiousity or mytholgy, but rather Ovid’s imagination of humanity. His work examines dynamics of power, guilt, blame, and art–all of which are absolutely rich and interesting to read. None of which, however, constitute a religious text. We cannot read it as “Ovid’s takes on the gods and his worship practices,” but rather “Ovid using literary allegory to explore themes relevant to life.” So I’d really like to throw out almost all Ovidian retellings as “Roman Mythology,” because frankly, it’s not mytholgy. It’s literature, allegory, and exploration.
Other Roman writers who engage myth either a) are distinctly Roman in their takes on myth, or b) are not much different from other
2. Some* Roman & Greek gods absolutely share similarities, but they do not share everything, and they do not share worship. They are also not “stolen.” Firstly, the Romans did steal from the Greeks when they took over. However, this is after Rome had been a society for a number of years, practicing their religion all the while. Unless they only began worshipping their gods around 214-148 BCE (which would be ridiculous, given that we have references and material evidence from well before that), clearly there was not a malicious “stealing” of Greek Gods.
What would make sense, is that Greeks influenced Etruscans, who then influenced much of Rome. Furthermore, Etruscans and Lucanians are fare more influential on Roman religion than are Greeks. Practices for funeral games, Gladiatorial Combat, blood sacrifice, and the worship of several gods all have roots in Lucanian and Etruscan practices. Greek influence on those parts of Italy likely remained and became a source for later Roman practice.
Furthermore, parallel development is possible. They were similar cultures in some ways, with patterns of interaction, commonalities, and, to a degree, similar needs. Both pantheons featuring a King, an Underworld, and gods for agriculture does not a “stolen” religion make. It implies similar needs, possible interaction and some cross-polination between several cultures.
Some cults, like that of Bacchus, were later additions from Greek migrants. However, those are regarded by Livy as an exception, not the rule. The rule is a much more organic, often syncretic and polythetic process from which religious practice is formed.
Interestingly, Herodotus himself acknowledges that Greeks likely took many of their own figures from the Egyptians. Therefore, the idea of the Greeks as “Original” and the Romans as diluted versions of it ignores the fact that Greeks owed many of their own religion to Egypt, and to the Pheonicians, and people in other parts of the Near East. Often, the erasure of such is a racist erasure of ancient cultures outside of Europe to proliterate the myth of the “Greek Miracle.”
So, in short: Romans did not “Steal the gods” from the O.G.’s, and the Greeks likely had a similar process of aquiring religious practices via interaction with other places over time.
* Not all gods and mythological figures are similar. For example, Romans’ apotheosis of Romulus into the god Quirinus is a figure that has no Greek equivalent. Likewise, the admiration of the Greeks for Oedipus as a hero with a place in Hero Cultus has little Roman equivalent. They valued different things and the figures of admiration decidedly receive different treatments. There are also plenty of deities and heroes that exist in one paradigm and not the other. This should go without saying.
3. Holy Differing Religions, Batman, the practices of the Greeks and Romans are wildly different from one another.
Speaking of, tell me about the Greek Vestal Virgins, I’ll wait. How about Greek lares? Greek Lupercal? No? Where is the Roman Brauronia, then? Or Roman cult of Brimo? How about Roman Basileus Archons? Roman Hera Bounaia? Roman Panathenaia? Likely, you won’t find one. This is because the practice and worship of similar figures, beyond the basic ideas of sacrifice, reciprocity, etc, could not be more different. Each culture held different values, and different ways of approaching religion on practicality.
Even where concepts like a virginal hearth goddess were shared in common, the practices and local cult beliefs varied wildly. Levels of state involvement in a given cult, the amount of admiration a given god received (see: Romans adored Mars, who shared so little with the Greek Ares who they feared, that I hesitate to even equate them sometimes) was not held in common. Further reading of religious texts of both of these cultures can show a lot of that.
Even Homer and Virgil, who are arguably in the “same canon” receive and treat things very differently.
TL;DR Rome had many religious practices unique from Greece, Greece was not an “original” culture, and tumblr!mythology lacks nuance.
Suggested Reading
Richard McKim, Myth Against Philosophy
Meghan DiLuzio, A Place At The Altar: Priestesses in Republican Rome
Jennifer Larson, Understanding Greek Religion
Emily Kearns, Greek Religion: A Sourcebook
Deborah Lyons, The Scandal of Women’s Ritual
John A North & Mary Bearrd, Religions of Rome: A Sourcebook
Horace, Carmen Saeculare
Homer, Iliad
Virgil, Aeneid
Livy, Early Histories of Rome
Sophocles, Oedipus at Colonus
Herodotus, Histories (especially those on Egypt)
Paul Robertson, Toward an Understanding of Philo’s and Cicero’s Treatment of SacrificeTagging @salinatrixx for her Trash Takes Tuesday Series she invited me to as well as @cicerhoe and @catilinas for their contributions and discussion
#THANK! YOU! #THE ETRUSCANS AND GREEKS HAD A ROBUST CULTURAL EXCHANGE WELL BEFORE ROME CAME INTO ITS OWN!#AND ETRUSCANS ALTERED/INCORPORATED ELEMENTS OF GREEK MYTHOLOGY IN A VERY ETRUSCAN WAY #THEN OF COURSE THE ROMANS INTERACT WITH BOTH CULTURAL GROUPS WHILE DEVELOPING THEIR OWN TRADITIONS #AND ALL OF THAT SORT OF COALESCED INTO RKMAN RELIGION AS A DISTINCT ENTITY SIMILAR TO THISE OF OTHER CLOSE CIVILIZATIONS tags by @clodiuspulcher broski you worded that so damb well i needed that on my bloge
Important Take: Roman and Greek Religion are not interchangeable, and Roman religiosity is not a corruption of a Greek “Original”
“But Romans took Greek myths and made them weird,” WRONG.
“Roman gods were the same as Greek ones, though!” NOPE! TRY AGAIN
“Romans stole Greek religion” WHOA, SUPER DUPER NOPE!These are some really common takes that absolutely don’t hold water. I would like to point out some important things to note in regards to Greek/Roman Religion, and the ways they are perceived by popular internet spaces, versus the reality of both when they are closely examined.
1. The first take relies a lot on taking Ovid as a serious source. This is especially problematic from the standpoint of a religious study because Ovid was not writing a religious work when he wrote the Metamorphoses. Let me turn to Richard McKim’s Myth Against Philosophy
Ovid does not “believe in” the myths of the Met. in any literal sense, of course. But in my view he suggests in Book 1 that, in probing their imaginative and psychological dimensions through poetry, he can capture the paradox and complexity of the world of human experience with far greater success than a philosopher can through reason.
This work, therefore, tells us nothing about wither Greek nor Roman religiousity or mytholgy, but rather Ovid’s imagination of humanity. His work examines dynamics of power, guilt, blame, and art–all of which are absolutely rich and interesting to read. None of which, however, constitute a religious text. We cannot read it as “Ovid’s takes on the gods and his worship practices,” but rather “Ovid using literary allegory to explore themes relevant to life.” So I’d really like to throw out almost all Ovidian retellings as “Roman Mythology,” because frankly, it’s not mytholgy. It’s literature, allegory, and exploration.
Other Roman writers who engage myth either a) are distinctly Roman in their takes on myth, or b) are not much different from other
2. Some* Roman & Greek gods absolutely share similarities, but they do not share everything, and they do not share worship. They are also not “stolen.” Firstly, the Romans did steal from the Greeks when they took over. However, this is after Rome had been a society for a number of years, practicing their religion all the while. Unless they only began worshipping their gods around 214-148 BCE (which would be ridiculous, given that we have references and material evidence from well before that), clearly there was not a malicious “stealing” of Greek Gods.
What would make sense, is that Greeks influenced Etruscans, who then influenced much of Rome. Furthermore, Etruscans and Lucanians are fare more influential on Roman religion than are Greeks. Practices for funeral games, Gladiatorial Combat, blood sacrifice, and the worship of several gods all have roots in Lucanian and Etruscan practices. Greek influence on those parts of Italy likely remained and became a source for later Roman practice.
Furthermore, parallel development is possible. They were similar cultures in some ways, with patterns of interaction, commonalities, and, to a degree, similar needs. Both pantheons featuring a King, an Underworld, and gods for agriculture does not a “stolen” religion make. It implies similar needs, possible interaction and some cross-polination between several cultures.
Some cults, like that of Bacchus, were later additions from Greek migrants. However, those are regarded by Livy as an exception, not the rule. The rule is a much more organic, often syncretic and polythetic process from which religious practice is formed.
Interestingly, Herodotus himself acknowledges that Greeks likely took many of their own figures from the Egyptians. Therefore, the idea of the Greeks as “Original” and the Romans as diluted versions of it ignores the fact that Greeks owed many of their own religion to Egypt, and to the Pheonicians, and people in other parts of the Near East. Often, the erasure of such is a racist erasure of ancient cultures outside of Europe to proliterate the myth of the “Greek Miracle.”
So, in short: Romans did not “Steal the gods” from the O.G.’s, and the Greeks likely had a similar process of aquiring religious practices via interaction with other places over time.
* Not all gods and mythological figures are similar. For example, Romans’ apotheosis of Romulus into the god Quirinus is a figure that has no Greek equivalent. Likewise, the admiration of the Greeks for Oedipus as a hero with a place in Hero Cultus has little Roman equivalent. They valued different things and the figures of admiration decidedly receive different treatments. There are also plenty of deities and heroes that exist in one paradigm and not the other. This should go without saying.
3. Holy Differing Religions, Batman, the practices of the Greeks and Romans are wildly different from one another.
Speaking of, tell me about the Greek Vestal Virgins, I’ll wait. How about Greek lares? Greek Lupercal? No? Where is the Roman Brauronia, then? Or Roman cult of Brimo? How about Roman Basileus Archons? Roman Hera Bounaia? Roman Panathenaia? Likely, you won’t find one. This is because the practice and worship of similar figures, beyond the basic ideas of sacrifice, reciprocity, etc, could not be more different. Each culture held different values, and different ways of approaching religion on practicality.
Even where concepts like a virginal hearth goddess were shared in common, the practices and local cult beliefs varied wildly. Levels of state involvement in a given cult, the amount of admiration a given god received (see: Romans adored Mars, who shared so little with the Greek Ares who they feared, that I hesitate to even equate them sometimes) was not held in common. Further reading of religious texts of both of these cultures can show a lot of that.
Even Homer and Virgil, who are arguably in the “same canon” receive and treat things very differently.
TL;DR Rome had many religious practices unique from Greece, Greece was not an “original” culture, and tumblr!mythology lacks nuance.
Suggested Reading
Richard McKim, Myth Against Philosophy
Meghan DiLuzio, A Place At The Altar: Priestesses in Republican Rome
Jennifer Larson, Understanding Greek Religion
Emily Kearns, Greek Religion: A Sourcebook
Deborah Lyons, The Scandal of Women’s Ritual
John A North & Mary Bearrd, Religions of Rome: A Sourcebook
Horace, Carmen Saeculare
Homer, Iliad
Virgil, Aeneid
Livy, Early Histories of Rome
Sophocles, Oedipus at Colonus
Herodotus, Histories (especially those on Egypt)
Paul Robertson, Toward an Understanding of Philo’s and Cicero’s Treatment of SacrificeTagging @salinatrixx for her Trash Takes Tuesday Series she invited me to as well as @cicerhoe and @catilinas for their contributions and discussion
#THANK! YOU! #THE ETRUSCANS AND GREEKS HAD A ROBUST CULTURAL EXCHANGE WELL BEFORE ROME CAME INTO ITS OWN!#AND ETRUSCANS ALTERED/INCORPORATED ELEMENTS OF GREEK MYTHOLOGY IN A VERY ETRUSCAN WAY #THEN OF COURSE THE ROMANS INTERACT WITH BOTH CULTURAL GROUPS WHILE DEVELOPING THEIR OWN TRADITIONS #AND ALL OF THAT SORT OF COALESCED INTO RKMAN RELIGION AS A DISTINCT ENTITY SIMILAR TO THISE OF OTHER CLOSE CIVILIZATIONS tags by @clodiuspulcher broski you worded that so damb well i needed that on my bloge
My bank fucked me over and it took more money it should from my account, now i owe them around 900rs.
With the help of Tumblr, i was able to raise $150 but i still need another 150 to be able to pay the debt.
I am desperate because the 17th i have to pay rent and i do not want to be even more in the red.
So, please, please if anyone can donate, even $1, even 0,5 i will be forever grateful, please help me if you can, and if you don’t, please, reblog.
ko-fi
PAYPAL
